Beyond Beer, Barbecues, and Buffoonery: Valuing Fatherhood in Therapy with Hilary Moses

With Father’s Day coming up, it’s important to acknowledge the essential role fathers play in the family dynamic and to reframe the stereotypical picture society has painted of fathers. Today on The Reframe, we welcome Hilary Moses, owner and parent coach at Solutions Family Support, for a conversation about how fathers can be valued in therapeutic spaces despite cultural narratives that often devalue them. Together, they explore the persistent stereotype of fathers as unintelligent, unempathetic, or incompetent "buffoons," and discuss the impact these assumptions can have on families, parenting, and clinical practice. Tuning in, you’ll hear all about the cultural narrative framed around fathers and how society perpetuates that, how Hilary is prioritizing reframing these narratives in her therapeutic environments, how therapists can challenge their own biased viewpoints, and more! We delve into the infantilization of fathers, the role women play in that, and the danger of perceiving men as a burden to the household before discussing the power of women seeing their husbands’ strengths as fathers. Hilary goes on to share therapeutic tools professionals can leverage to help deconstruct these stereotypes and support change within these dynamics. She also shares her thoughts on gentle parenting and how it may perpetuate stereotypes. Finally, Hilary discusses some action steps that therapeutic practitioners can implement to move the needle on these issues.

Key Points From This Episode:

• Welcoming Hilary Moses to this episode of The Reframe. 
• The cultural narrative surrounding fathers vs. mothers. 
• How Hilary navigates reframing these stereotypical roles in therapy. 
• Biases therapists may have about fathers and how they can be aware of that. 
• The effects of a father’s depression on his children and what may cause it. 
• How the infantilization of fathers plays out within the family dynamic. 
• The importance of women seeing their husband’s ‘superpowers’ as a father. 
• How we can support change within this dynamic and deconstruct stereotypes. 
• Our guest shares her thoughts on gentle parenting and how it discounts the father’s role. 
• Action steps to take within therapeutic environments to better value fatherhood. 

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:

Hilary Moses on LinkedIn

Solutions Family Support

Douglas Bodin
The Bodin Group

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

What role do women play in the infantilization of men and dads in the last couple of decades that is contributing to boys leaning into misogyny?

SPEAKER_01 0:12

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 0:17

Welcome to the Reframe, where we have real, unfiltered conversations about mental health, parenting, and addiction treatment in a changing world. Hosted by Douglas Bowden, a therapeutic consultant with 35 years of experience, we explore the shifts shaping mental health care, featuring experts pioneering new approaches and offering practical advice. Join us as we challenge old narratives and reframe the way we think about the challenges in mental health treatment. This is The Reframe. Let's dive in.

SPEAKER_02 1:16

She's a leading voice in parenting, treatment transitions, and family healing. Hilary, welcome to the reframe.

SPEAKER_03 1:22

Thanks, Douglas. It's so nice to be here.

SPEAKER_02 1:24

This sort of comes out of some conversations you and I have had over the years when we get to catch each other at these conferences and we get fired up on various topics. And this is one that I think we see as a pre-Father's Day episode. We're coming up on that, and there's a lot of resonance for me. We were we were joking beforehand about the nature of greeting cards, you know, Mother's Day cards versus Father's Day cards, and something to pay attention to when they go shopping this year. But why don't I toss it over to you and talk about just what's the underpinnings? What's sort of the cultural narrative about fathers and mothers, especially in the therapeutic and academic environments?

SPEAKER_03 2:00

Yeah, I'm curious to hear what you read about greeting cards too. When you said that, my brain went to the Mother's Day cards are probably really sweet, the Father's Day cards are funny and like fart jokes and swear jars and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_02 2:12

Lots of beer and barbecues and incompetence.

SPEAKER_03 2:14

Right. Right. Same with when you're searching for gifts. And it's funny when we were talking before about how dads are represented in sitcoms, after our that conversation we had, I did a search on sitcoms that highlight dumb dad figures. And the list is like The Simpsons, Home Improvement, It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, shameless, step by step. I mean, each of them have this dumb dad figure who is in over his head. So I'll say that. I also want to say that there's two pieces that I'm thinking of leading into this. One, this stirred back up as a topic for me because of the lens I have on my family right now and my relationship. And we, my husband and I had a month, a solid month of empty nesting. And then his dad passed away, and his mom, who's got mild dementia, moved in with us. And pretty quickly we saw our stereotyped, polarized dynamics that we saw in ourselves as parents, saw that stir back up.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

Right.

SPEAKER_03 3:18

And for me, I witness myself falling into what I'm afraid of for dads. And that is as the female who there's like an empathy side, there's also an organization, organizational side, and I have these strengths of keeping it all together, and he's fun. And he has a lot more strengths than that. But I saw my own frustration and my own finger pointing and also devaluing him and how what he brings to the table. And I was like, oh, this is the conversation I had with Doug about how dads get minimized, especially in the treatment world, especially when we're surrounded by female therapists, we're surrounded by female teachers, and a lot of the conversation is about how to be more empathetic and come alongside people and listen to emotions. And I think that's a framework. And one of the questions I'll just say really quickly is what are we seeing that's different that's bringing this to the table? And my concern is that I'm not seeing anything different. Moms are still the primary parent, and dads are devalued in the role of the family, and that's why it matters to me.

SPEAKER_02 4:28

So that's the cultural piece, but practically speaking, just to level set, there's a growing, I'd say, over tilting, I guess that sort of judges it, but we've gone, and you've got some statistics about this of how many new therapists are female, how many of the teachers are female, how much of that world has that lens that brings into it, in addition to the cultural overlay, which I think can affect women in these practices, but they're bringing that lens to it too. What are some of the statistics around that?

SPEAKER_03 4:58

There's higher percentages of female teachers, there's higher percentage of female therapists, and that moms are still the primary parent. And even when I do research on the framework of gentle parenting, which is kind of a parenting style du jour, and there's pros and cons, but it speaks to women. It's set up as a framework that is meant for moms. And so it's a there's parts of it that are a helpful piece of the puzzle, but it doesn't take the whole thing into consideration.

SPEAKER_02 5:29

It's like 85%, 90% of newer therapists, especially are are female.

SPEAKER_03 5:36

Yeah, the therapists, elementary school teachers, K through 12 teachers, special ed teachers, yeah, women, women, women, 75% and higher.

SPEAKER_02 5:45

And we can do a whole other episode on on the effects on boys, but I think today we're talking about men. So what do you think are some of the big differences that that lens brings? And how does it affect the therapy? You work in your coaching capacity with parents all the time. What are you seeing play out in the rooms? I mean, you're catching yourself saying, wait a minute, am I applying a different lens here? And and how do we have to sort of value the dad roles, being the fun guy, bringing maybe a more spontaneous or innovative or pro whatever the characteristics we want to bring into it, how do you shift from taking the negative lens on the father's role and see that it can be complementary to that of the mom?

SPEAKER_03 6:30

I think it's important for us to say that we are going to be talking in broad strokes. There's some stereotypes. None of this is all or nothing, and I don't want to discount all of the everything. And I want to say that there's also to consider the Me Too movement, spotlight on patriarchy, spotlight on narcissism, toxic masculinity, which are important to have spotlighted and thoughtfully addressed. And I think the downside is the broad stroke that gets painted and masks the strengths that dads bring to the table. So part of what we're seeing in coaching, one is that women are consistently still the ones showing up. I'll say, even, so we have a dad's group that, and in the marketing of it, our thinking is well, we have to figure out how to market it to the moms because the dads aren't going to pay attention and the moms are going to be the one that are going to make their husbands go and do it. Right. So even in the language of how we're choosing to market, we're marketing toward moms. And I think that's part of the problem, right? So we even talked about how do we really step aside from that. I mean, there's some truth to the numbers in marketing, that at least in our world of parent coaching, struggling kids, all of that, that moms are doing the deep dive searches and all of that more. So that is happening. And how can we break our own language? And that's part of why I reached out to you to have this conversation as well. And I guess the other thing that I want to say briefly right now is that in the room, in the parent coaching that we're doing, moms are showing up more often. And part of what I'm hearing is from the language of the moms in these kind of traditional male-female parenting dynamics is that moms are talking about how, you know, the dads are avoidant or the moms, you know, creating all the rules, dealing with all of the mess, dealing with the school, dealing with this, and dad comes home and blows it all up, like, ah, he can have another hour of screen time. It's fine, right? And so there's some of those stereotyped conversations that are happening. And I think that the women who are showing up to do this work are part of what we're trying to help them with is to see the strengths that the dads bring so that they can value that and see it as complementary and they can see each other as complimentary and stop being so antagonistic in the dynamic.

SPEAKER_02 8:56

So you reach the parents through the moms and marketing to them, but then you have to also keep the dads interested and not feel attacked or that their lens on the world or how they just their their operating system is devalued. How do you do that? That sounds like a very delicate balancing act.

SPEAKER_03 9:16

And it depends on who's showing up. There's all sorts of specifics about that. Right. I would say that part of it is is really intentionally making sure that each voice has time. Typically, when two people are showing up, one person tends to be the talker and take over more often. Sometimes that's the mom, sometimes that is the dad.

SPEAKER_02 9:40

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 9:40

And I think really intentionally carving out time. And then when I'm thinking of a recent call session that I had where the dad tends to actually see things more rigidly and more negatively, and the mom tends to have more empathy and be more in charge. And we're going for that middle place, right? Like nobody is all right all the time. So, you know, in classic Gottman style, somewhere in the middle is a more full truth. So let's take part of what you're saying, part of what you're saying, and see if we can find a middle path that values both of these because we don't want, you know, it's like the wise-minded work in DBT. So we talk about kind of developing a wise-minded parenting approach that balances both sides and talks about how, you know, these parents are in the trenches. They're in a war zone, they're in the trenches together. Can they see each other as being alone in the trenches and see what value they each bring? Because we need both of them to come to the table.

SPEAKER_02 10:43

I keep coming back to, as I'm thinking about this, the sitcom narrative and how dads feel marginalized and what you're talking about and having their voice have equal weight and approaching them. But I think even the language of therapy, first of all, I think it's infused into our cultural conversation more and more, I think, especially among women and moms. How does that affect the therapist in their work? You know, part with partly we're doing this podcast to reach the therapist. How can they be more mindful of their lens and some of their own biases and now some of the negative cultural overlay on dads pervasively? How can they be more aware of how they're coming at it and needing to find that balance when it might go against some of their own preconceived notions, their own internal viewpoint on who men and dads are?

SPEAKER_03 11:36

Yeah. And one, I think it's really starting where we claim to start, which is what are each of your strengths, right? And really carving out time to understand, hear it from each of them as individuals, hear them talk about each other's strengths, so that we're starting from an understanding that there are characteristics, there are values, there are habits that each person brings that are strengths. And in the therapy language, if we're doing it really well, what I think first about empathy and attunement and curiosity to help people, and this is, you know, there's developmentally appropriate approaches depending on a kid's age and capability, but emotional attunement, which is classically something that moms do stereotypically. And then there's also and there's a big lean on that, right? We gotta we gotta be curious, we gotta hear what their emotions are, we need to align with them, come alongside them, all of which is true.

SPEAKER_02 12:36

And also keep them safe. There's a there's a I think safety is a part of it too. There's that maybe we should come back to that, but I think that's a threat here.

SPEAKER_03 12:45

Yeah, safety, and it is a thread, and I think that what ends up happening with the emotional attunement is that moms also stereotypically relieve, they come in to relieve the pain. Whereas, and this is where I think we need to be in our therapeutic language, bring both in, dads more classically help a kid push through.

SPEAKER_02 13:04

Right.

SPEAKER_03 13:04

Right? Like the whole conversation of like, man up, wipe it off, you know, just give it a rub and keep going. And we need both of those, right? We need to develop emotional EQ, right? And emotional language. And we also need, great, okay, that's how you're feeling. Now let's go make this happen. We need both of those.

SPEAKER_02 13:23

Well, it for me it's it's paralleling a lot of the conversations we have internally and on this podcast and other venues around how much young people in general are getting the therapy, and a lot of it's there's so much attention being paid to the mental health crisis and all this kind of stuff. And I have questions about whether it's actually a crisis or manufactured, that's another episode. But versus the experiential, the doing, the having challenges. I mean, you you worked in wilderness for years. It's about discomfort and how do you find ways to adapt and push through and start to have confidence in yourself. And that seems like a parallel distinction in how dads, again, stereotypically, will often push through, you know, the suck it up part versus the softening making it better. And I think there's some parallels to how we work with teens and young adults and and how we approach those things.

SPEAKER_03 14:15

I agree. And one of the things, one of the concepts that is coming into my brain is the rough and tumble play, which is one of the really important pieces in early childhood. Also, one of the stats that I read was about a father's depression affecting a child's mental health pretty consistently three years down the line, that there was a correlation between a father's depression and a kid's stability later on, which I think is different than kind of the parent coaching model and how we're showing up for dads. However, it's obviously related because I think that there's the avoidance piece that we talk about when we see dads consistently feeling not good enough at home because we are coaching and therapizing toward a female framework and female language when we're talking about how to show up as better parents for our kids. And let's say dads are at work, they feel competent, they feel confident, they're depended on in certain ways, and they come home and you know, they're not listening well enough, they're they're not gathering information, they're not helping in this way, they need to do this differently, they have to go tell their kid that they have to go put the consequence into action that happened earlier today when the dad wasn't even there because the dad has to come in and be the heavy, and he didn't do that right either. And there's a lot of message delivering that you are not good enough. And so then we see the dads not coming home and avoiding and focusing on work, which they get crapped on for, also, right? You're a workaholic, that's all you do. You never come home. Like, well, it feels terrible when I come home. And so those cycles all lead to increased depression and dads, and we need our dads to feel awesome because we need the kids to have their dads feeling awesome.

SPEAKER_02 16:08

Well, what's going on there? We we were talking about this prepping for this episode, and I think you were being self-referential when you were you're talking about your husband coming home and in this case taking care of your mother-in-law, but and and I call it air traffic control, where you've got so many things that you're balancing and juggling, and this is one of your strengths, and I think it's it's more true again, stereotypically, of moms, and they're having to hold on to the kids' education and when the therapy sessions are and uh any number of other things around the household. And then that is, you know, at work and maybe working too much, and maybe that's partly avoidance. But then what are some of the practical effects of that when he comes home, when he gets there? And I think you've you started to talk about this that that he's gonna feel that sense of incompetence and to use the vernacular otherness when he's coming home. How does that play out practically?

SPEAKER_03 16:59

In the moment, we see the dynamic play out in the tension between the parents. I think the tone for both parents shifts and the kids start to witness it as soon as there's this transition. Parents coming and going from the house is a big transition for them as parents and for the kids. There's all, you know, you add a person to the mix and everything changes, right? It's systems theory, and and so we see the tone change in the house. Sometimes it's immediate increased tension because of everybody's anticipatory anxiety of what happens when this transition is occurring. So I think practically we see a change in the whole tone of the house. Maybe the mom increases tension, feels more stress. And I think it's because the language that just came up for me is that dads are seen as another thing to be managed, not as a value add, right? The feeling for the mom, the anticipation for the mom, and the dad coming home is okay, one more thing to manage. He's gonna have screwed this up, he's gonna do this, I know this is gonna happen. And so, even before that transition of somebody coming back into the house at the end of the day or coming out of their home office, more likely these days, the tension increases, and that actually leaks out in the communication to the kids. And I think that the polarization of the parenting we see happen as well, where the dad knows that he's gonna come home and be managed and almost acts out as a result and causes more chaos, right? Immediately comes in to be playful. You think I'm gonna screw it all up anyway, so I might as well have fun and hang out with my kids. And so the polarization makes each role escalate.

SPEAKER_02 18:41

You've even used the word infantilization.

SPEAKER_03 18:43

Oh, yeah, right, because that they feel managed, which is infantilizing.

SPEAKER_02 18:47

Boy, that's a tough one to break out of. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:50

And then what happens, I think, the mom, so in my coaching role, when I'm then focusing on one more thing that the mom needs to do, right? How do you show up in a way that expresses, that understands, believes, and expresses true value in what your co-parent brings to the table? And the moms are like, wait, I have to do more work? No, no, no, no. He needs to show up as less of the clown. He needs to know what he's coming into, he needs to help me manage the schedule, he needs to make sure the kids are doing their homework before he's playing video games with them. He needs to do the work, and it's really quickly shifts into placing blame, and we focus a lot on ownership and claiming. And for the moms, it feels exhausting. And so then we're in this battle to get the moms to keep showing up in a way that supports valuing the dads.

SPEAKER_02 19:46

So we're moving from infantilization and move the dads into middle management.

unknown 19:51

Right.

SPEAKER_02 19:52

Well, it it's tough, and I think about it. Obviously, it's it's hard not to personalize it at some level. You you have two sons, I have three daughters, and I think about how bringing that you can't help but bring that sort of that fun play. I think about it too, because we watched more Family Guy than we should have. And you know, I I came to real Kenna said to me recently, because she started to watch it as an adult now, and she's like, Oh my god, Dad, you let me watch that, but I didn't get any of the jokes. Like, no, you didn't. But it was it was sure fun. And I think we got into trouble for having watched that. But you know, I've also come to almost I can't watch Family Guy really anymore because Peter Griffin is such a complete doofus. He's doing everything wrong.

SPEAKER_03 20:34

I'm embarrassed to say I've actually never seen it. Maybe I'm not embarrassed to say that, but anyway.

SPEAKER_02 20:43

Well, there's too much of that here. And then a lot of South Park. I think that it's hard. I I know that it was hard for me sometimes to almost see myself in the Peter Griffin as a dad. You know, you you I think not just do we get that for the moms and for the kids, but I think I guess this is personal, but I think it's hard not to also see yourself reflected that way. And I think it can it can take a hit. And you you can find yourself falling into that pattern or it normalizes it or justifies it somehow. And I think I think that's a hard part too. And I I going back to you have sons, I have daughters, I'm conscious of the fact that I was deliberate about having given them more rough and tumble than treating them as you know, princesses all the time and and trying to give them those experiences, you know, in a safe way, but to to have the adventure and to push them outside of their comfort zone and to really value their being challenged in the physical domains and the in the ways that moms tend not to. But it was something that I was aware of in the culture that girls can be pigeonholed and we can we put that on them, but that having those those experiences also I think largely because of what I've been doing for a living for thirty three years in Seattle. plays out. But nonetheless, I think it's something that we as dads also have to be mindful of and value our role in a healthy and constructive manner that we attend to. How do we take those things that are our strengths, feel good about those things and not feel put upon with the toxic masculinity, but to emphasize that, be deliberate about it and intentional, but to make sure that we're embracing our role as dads and what we can bring to the parenting as distinct from what moms tend to do.

SPEAKER_03 22:30

Yeah. And advocating, right? We talk about advocating and asserting in healthy ways with each other as parents so that dads aren't just getting beat up by the women, metaphorically, hopefully, not literally, and then hiding away. You know, there's the stereotype of the dad like my dad had his den, right? And it was full of books and encyclopedias. And you know, he he would just go and sit in there, but like hide away in the den and be able to say, hey, I have some value here. How can I help? Can we talk about this? And it's interesting coming back to my personal experience and my own work to disentangle from feeling like the bad guy. I think this is a dynamic we talk about a lot where there's a good guy and a bad guy and the fun dad, the Disneyland dad is the good guy and the mom who's kind of holding all these things is the bad guy. And and in my work in reinvigorating strength-based parenting into my awareness, part of my disentanglement was or my reframe was that I'm a superhero. I'm a superhero for my family when I am holding everyone accountable, checking the homework, making sure they're doing this before they're on screens or doing something else, there is a superhero role in that. And if I'm showing up feeling like the bad guy, then I've got that tone. I've got an ick tone toward my kids, toward my partner that's I would say more toxic than playing video games before doing the homework. So seeing my strengths as a superpower and then inviting myself to say, okay, well what are his superpowers? And there are things like he's so great at spontaneity and playfulness. I mean he for a long time we both did the school trips or we would take turns but he could take the school trips with way less stress than I could and he would he was way more fun. He could do things spontaneously he could show up to help with the unexpected in great ways and positive ways. And I I think I said this to you before I need more time. I'm not great spontaneously I need a plan. If the plan doesn't go the way I want it to I need time to recalibrate. And sometimes that means I need to go away I need to pout. I need to blame somebody and get frustrated and then I need to kind of get my head out of my butt for a period so that I can then show up. And when you're raising kids there's so much spontaneity hopefully that you want to be a positive thing. And for me I would get pouty about it and he would just be joyful. And so that was a huge strength that he would bring to the family. And being able to see that as a strength and not just like me, me, me, right? That's important.

SPEAKER_02 25:03

I wasn't there but I believe it you know it also occurs to me that dads have to do this not just as the parent partner but also as the role modeling. How do you be masculine in a positive way and I'm thinking you know I I started to in prepping for this podcast and it's just a general interest of mine that I watched a part and the part that I could tolerate of that Netflix documentary about the manosphere. If you look at what the messaging that boys are getting absent other strong appropriate male models, they're dipping into some pretty toxic actual toxic stuff.

SPEAKER_03 25:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:41

Misogynistic stuff young women are going towards a lot more misandry, but that's different conversation. But nevertheless, the dads have to take on a positive role model presence at the very least to counteract what their sons are getting in the manosphere and online and gaming and all this kind of stuff which is largely not healthy.

SPEAKER_03 26:02

Yeah I I agree.

SPEAKER_02 26:04

They have to kind of own that and I think the moms have to let the dads be in that role or or help support the dads being in that role to buffer what the boys are getting.

SPEAKER_03 26:15

Yeah. Big time. It's hard to read about some of the 18 and and early 20 year old men who are being fed by a misogynistic movement and I think you know the pendulum swings and it's hard to consider that and this is this is one of those places where I don't want to discount or minimize there's so many experiences that are out there and there's so many people who are marginalized in so many ways. And what role do women play in the infantilization of men and dads in you know the last couple of decades that is contributing to boys leaning into misogyny. Exactly it's sad and it's it's scary to think about. And similarly you know I've got two boys and they've talked before through and they're 22 and my younger one's about to be 20 on Monday. They've talked before about the fears of even flirting with girls and women and having such a hard time knowing how to show up in that world. I mean so they're so much of their time is figuring out how to show up online in that world and I've got one kid who's more in that and one kid who's not in that at all and doesn't want to touch it really. And then we've got dads who have not for the most part they didn't grow up in a world where you weren't allowed to flirt right so they're not quite sure how to show up and model. I mean they are right they know how to teach respect for women largely and and they know how to teach flirting without crossing a line for the most part and there's so much fear for boys right now in learning how to be a balanced man. And I think it's hard for dads to know how to model for them.

SPEAKER_02 28:01

I'm thinking about my own daughters and and having said to one of them at at one point when she was getting to that age and I I made a comment to her about you know men are dogs. Uh-huh and they're after only one thing and be careful and blah blah blah. You know dad stuff.

SPEAKER_03 28:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:16

Well there I go I'm part of the problem. We all are and I gave it some more thought I I think she said to me something like you know well that that's just not true and I was thinking about it and I thought more about it and I and I really came back to think you know what that's really unfair of me to the boys, right? And to the girls because boys for the most part are nice. And if they flirt poorly it's not for the most part out of ill intent. Yeah crossing lines. And they shouldn't be pigeonholed the way I did. And it really and this is before the whole manosphere before even the internet was a huge thing I think and or at least the online stuff and all the Me Too and all that. But just sort of a dad-to-daughter kind of reflexive statement. And mostly I thought it was unfair to the boys because boys aren't like that and they and it's unfair to my daughters because they have a lot more to offer than just their sexuality or bodies or whatever. So it was unfair to bo yeah I mean I screwed up all over the place with that one. But I think it's how how easy it is to fall into these stereotypes and these black and white kinds of statements when especially when the culture supports that narrative.

SPEAKER_03 29:31

Yeah yeah and I know we're talking about parenting but you know thinking about being a teenager in general and you know my experience was of being a teenage girl and and then I got to raise teenage boys and man I'll tell you I think teenage girls are tougher than teenage boys are.

SPEAKER_02 29:47

Have you noticed the hairline? I have three daughters yeah I mean I'm you got better hair than I do.

SPEAKER_03 29:57

Man. And okay so I want to think some about how do we how do we support a change right I want to I want to make sure that teachers right for boys who become men who have female teachers their whole lives I I guess I just I want it to be understood that this is happening and I want us to really invite consideration in our language and how we're focusing you know in in family systems work and in parent coaching we use the drama triangle a lot and the empowerment dynamic where we're identifying the victim the rescuer and the persecutor to help people identify what roles they tend to be in what does it sound like what is their intention what are the effects on each other and I think that is at least in the world of therapy it's such common language that it can be a really nice place to start with strengths and understanding how strengths can the dad strengths can be a hugely important role in the family dynamic so that we can really pick them up and value them. And in that language where the empowerment dynamic takes the the persecutor role which historically is that like you you know do as I say and you know my way or the highway and the rule follower all of that person which oftentimes stereotypically is the dad role if we really focus on the strengths of that role which is in that so there's boundaries and and rigidity in that but there's also a pushing through right so that's where we come like we want to we want you to push through the emotions and deal with it and do what I tell you right so there's a not so great bent on that but then there's a really positive way and and you be go from the persecutor to the challenger in the empowerment dynamic language where the challenger is there to say yeah you've got feelings and they matter and you have to get this done by Tuesday and you've got it right and it's a the attitude of you've got this you can do this you can have feelings and get the dishes done both are true. You've got it I'm going to set a deadline for you and if you can't get it done then you know what kiddo you're not going to have your phone until it is done. And that's a challenger it says you're capable you have feelings I hear them I value them and I still believe that you can do this. And to me in the stereotype role of you know the rough and tumble dad or the the rigid line drawer who's not taking emotions and other things into account I think that's a really great place to start with strengths. And then there's also the dad who's the rescuer because we work with dads who are persecutors and dads who are rescuers, right? They're usually at one end of the spectrum or the other same with same with moms, but we're talking about dads. And the rescuer who's like the sucker and you know the daughter this is probably you Doug, right? Dog your daughter's got you wrapped around their fingers right and oh no not you not at all and so looking at the rescuer who wants there to be levity and and wants to relieve and and they get to be the coach right which I think is great language for the empowerment dynamic because I would say more dads are coaches to their kids teams than moms are although I haven't looked at that those stats lately. Moms are probably more coaches now than ever. I was a coach. But when you can go from the rescuer to the coach and the the coach's job is to get everybody to work well together. And so rather than the rescuer who comes in and says like no no you can have another hour of screen time don't worry right whatever it is when the let's say the mom in this case has said no your screen time is done period end the coach's job is to come in and say hey you guys got this you can figure out how to work this out I support both of you and you can do it and whatever it is there's so many different examples that are more clear than the way I just said it but to use the empowerment dynamic language to highlight strengths. Yes and I say this with all due respect but Hillary can you make me a sandwich oh yeah my sandwich back form Yeah I hope everyone gets that's a joke but I can absolutely make you a sandwich Doug if you will go get the ingredients out and the plates and if you will clean up after I make sandwiches.

SPEAKER_02 34:21

Yeah so there's but tie that in with the the coaching role and the complimentary work and and work don't just leave me hanging out there having asked you to make me a sandwich.

SPEAKER_03 34:31

Yeah yeah for sure. So the sandwich spectrum is something that I made up and it's super clinically valid I'm sure and I do write about it. I did put it in the the book that we published a couple years ago but the sandwich spectrum to me it's a nice concrete way to look at the polarized roles that we play and how as long as everybody's doing something in between and a little bit of everything then we're okay. So sandwich spectrum is on one end of it let's say you've got the stereotypical well we'll go with mom stereotypical mom always making a sandwich for the kid stereotypical dad never making a sandwich for the kid and what we want is a little bit of everything right we want sometimes I'll make you a sandwich and I'm gonna ask you to make me a sandwich and sometimes I'll get out the ingredients you can make the sandwich I'll clean up and sometimes we'll make sandwiches for everybody together and the idea is to pay attention to the polarized roles that you're in on the sandwich spectrum and for each parent to do something somewhere in between the two ends. And that's that's the sweet spot that what that's what we want all parents aiming for.

SPEAKER_02 35:40

That's a very helpful metaphor. What would you say I know I know I don't know if you want to dip into the your thoughts on gentle parenting which is I know it's a it's a hot topic and we can talk a little bit about that and where that plays out. Because that's sort of the of the moment I think a lightning rod but also for those of us who are paying a lot of attention to the world of parenting but for those who are the consumers of parenting advice and books and TED talks or whatever that's sort of in vogue.

SPEAKER_03 36:07

Yeah and I think it's set up as kind of a universal this is the way to do it and I think it it again it discounts the role of the dad to some degree. It's it's and I said earlier right it's kind of built around a a more feminine framework where the focus in part and you know I'm not gonna speak to it in depth but I do want to talk about a little bit is that it's emotional attunement it's bringing comfort it's verbal processing and classically those are skills sorry men that are more typically women's and mom's skills and I think there's there's benefits to it when done fully and consistently right so the the framework encourages emotional language and attunement and empathy and natural consequences and all sorts of things that we teach as effective and unless it's done so I guess what I part of what I would say is let me touch on natural consequences. So part of the gentle parenting framework is focuses on individuality it focuses on helping kids to use different language to address emotions and it's talking about teaching them better ways to deal with hard things. And a lot of parents stop at empathy choice and individuality and it's the women it's classically the moms who are putting this into action and they like the empathy like I want to talk about your emotions and how you feel and I want to talk about choice like what do you think you should do here and individuality like let's support them having their own opinions and unless you're really educated about developmental appropriateness and the developmental capability of your child you might be asking too much at too young of an age. But then there's also these pieces about natural consequences which we hugely support. However we see parents who aren't resilient enough to tolerate the natural consequences part of natural of gentle parenting and if you don't have that puzzle piece in this then this is where we shift into permissive parenting and it often I think gets misinterpreted as permissive parenting because it's not being done consistently it's not being done in full and it's a framework that is also exhausting to parents so we're seeing the moms who are trying to put this framework into action they're exhausted so they're not consistent and they're not doing the natural consequences part because they're not resilient enough for it. And so it kind of falls apart.

SPEAKER_02 38:34

That's a key piece that intolerance for the natural and logical consequences and it's often about the parents inability to tolerate their discomfort about their child's discomfort and the misunderstanding of developmental positioning and all of that. And I think it's also related to the overtherapization of language pervasively in our culture that everything is taken through that lens and and and less of the instinctual bringing the actual parental instincts and having to use a technique or a technology which serves to just give comfort to the parent but doesn't account for the child's actual developmental stage and the child's development of better decision making and resilience. And we see a lot of this in our role as as consultants and in our mentoring program where that gentleness, that therapy speak just ends up in poor boundaries and lowered expectations and we're seeing the wreckage of it on a regular basis.

SPEAKER_03 39:31

Yeah and and I think that you would probably agree that we're seeing distress tolerance at an all-time low in kids who are growing up. And there's so many reasons for that and I could get on a huge technology screen time soapbox about that. And I think even coming back to gentle parenting I think when it becomes permissive parenting and when the natural consequences aren't a part of it and and when it's not done well and consistently it negatively affects distress tolerance and I my belief is and I would say that my experience is that when we bring some of the strengths of the dad into it and that you might see more allowance for natural consequences and when we come back to that idea of dads helping to push kids through that's where we have increased distress tolerance.

SPEAKER_02 40:26

What are some action items for our industry for therapeutic programs for individual therapists working with parents and especially for fathers what are some some takeaways some things they can do or attend to fairly concretely and immediately to help improve our delivery of of some of these services?

SPEAKER_03 40:46

One of the pieces in the outline and I think this was Jenna's language after our first conversation is are we dismissing fun as non-essential? And part of what I think is is interesting about this is the importance of not dismissing fun and valuing it as a strength. So there's gentle parenting and overcoddling that's a thing and then there's also raising achievement bots where we're pushing kids to do a lot right like have extracurriculars there's there's all sorts of stuff there's homework at way too early in age there's a there's a whole lot going on there and making sure that the dad energy of fun is brought in intentionally and as a value and part of the week's schedule right so in my stereotypical mother role and I want to say I'm the step parent my kids have an awesome mom also and I was have been the stepmom for 18 years but I am the scheduler right and the to-dos I am on top of all of the to-dos that need to happen and making sure that fun is in there as part of the to-do is key it's key we need to make sure we're valuable schedule fun it doesn't have to be scheduled but it has to be considered as an important part of the week to allow for I think it comes like dad comes home and even if it's homework time and everybody's working on homework and that's what's on the schedule moms need to know that it is okay to push the pause button and let dad come in and wreak havoc for a little bit in that stereotype dynamic and allow for that be resilient enough as a family to then reset to allow for the play and the reconnection with dad in their lives as an important figure and then maybe in working with the dad we can talk to the dad about can you then wrap that up and before you leave the room can you say okay what are you supposed to be focusing on how can I help what do you need to get done before dinner time or whatever it is so that they can play that balanced role also so that it's not the mom coming in and saying okay and managing and infantilizing the dad like okay kids yeah like go to your room dad and you guys need to be doing homework.

SPEAKER_02 43:05

One of the things we've talked about is how if the gender roles were reversed if if instead of men coming home to a list of honeydews that we were giving lists and commands to the moms. Speak to that for a moment.

SPEAKER_03 43:20

Yeah and in in a therapy session if our frameworks in therapy and parenting were more in a male framework, a dad framework and our conversations were about how hey mom you gotta you gotta be more like dad you got to use his language you gotta you know do it this way do it that way the conversation would be like well that's really narcissistic and misogynistic so absolutely not right and there would be this very clear especially in the way that we are culturally right now you know we wouldn't have it.

SPEAKER_02 43:50

There's not a whole lot of room for things to be reversed.

SPEAKER_03 43:53

Well said what do we haven't touched on today that you'd like to oh gosh I don't even want to look at the list that we came up with because there's there's so many things. I think for therapists I want to give a shout out to get back to strengths based if you've if you haven't delved into it for a while because you're in your own rhythms of of whatever models you're working on, really get into strengths-based stuff again, whether it's positive psychology, strengths-based parenting, and just shine a flashlight on yourself a little bit to look at what your own beliefs are about men, about dads, about their role, when you're working with both parents, what's the storyline that you're hearing and how can you show up in a way that is stewarding a strengths-based approach so that dads are valued and so that you're not just talking about parenting in a way that the dad needs to be different, the dad needs to be better, the dad needs to have more emotionally attuned language and train moms to value their partners, which is what we've been talking about the whole time. But just wanted to reiterate it I guess.

SPEAKER_02 44:58

Well that's an excellent reminder and I think that's a great place to wrap up remind everyone happy Father's Day. Go find a father's or write your own Father's Day card that speaks to the values not just the beers and barbecue or the incompetence and I hope this has been a helpful episode for everyone.

SPEAKER_00 45:14

Hilary Moses it's been great to have you on the reframe thank you for tuning in to this episode of the reframe follow the show wherever you listen to podcasts so you'll never miss an episode. Please share this episode with your friends, colleagues, innovators in the industry and anyone you feel would benefit from listening. To learn more about the Voting Group and Votin Mentoring and find additional resources connect with us at www.thevoting group dot com