Bringing Life Experience to Leadership with Alex Zemeckis

What happens when you stop running from your past and start building from it? In this episode, Alex Zemeckis shares his powerful journey from addiction to leadership, and how the questions he asked himself at 19 became the foundation for the recovery programs he leads today. Together, we explore how the recovery landscape has changed over the last 12 years, how addiction shows up differently in a digital world, and why recovery looks unique for young men at The Grounds and young women at Mare’s House, named after his mother. Alex unpacks why meaningful work is central to healing, why families must be supported alongside the person in recovery, and how compassion for parents can transform the entire system. This is a deeply human conversation about integrity, purpose, and what becomes possible when you choose to live in alignment with who you truly are.

Key Points From This Episode:

• Our guest, Alex Zemeckis’ journey through addiction to leadership.
• How assessing what he needed at 19 years old led to the programme he runs today. 
• What has changed in the recovery landscape over the last 12 years.
• How recovery differs for the men at The Grounds and the young women at Mare’s House.
• Why work is built into the recovery programme at The Grounds.
• The importance of treating the family system along with the kid who is in recovery.
• Finding compassion for parents.
• How the experience of addiction differs for older adults.
• What Alex is learning about women’s experience with recovery. 
• Shifts within Alex’s organizations, including bringing on a clinical team.
• How addiction has evolved in a digital landscape.
• Why acting out of integrity and your passion changes everything. 

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:

Alex Zemeckis on LinkedIn
The Grounds Recovery
Mare’s House 

Douglas Bodin
The Bodin Group

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:01

So much of the world we're in now is how are you gonna be relational? How are you gonna build friends? How are you gonna build community? I mean, we are like beyond a precipice of this.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Welcome to the Reframe, where we have real, unfiltered conversations about mental health, parenting, and addiction treatment in a changing world. Hosted by Douglas Bowden, a therapeutic consultant with 35 years of experience, we explore the shifts shaping mental health care, featuring experts pioneering new approaches and offering practical advice. Join us as we challenge old narratives and reframe the way we think about the challenges in mental health treatment. This is the reframe. Let's dive in.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

Today we're joined by Alex Zemeckis, who is the owner and founder of the Grounds Recovery and Mayor's House in San Diego. For over a decade, Alex has worked in the addiction treatment and mental health communities, helping young adults find ways to live a vibrant, healthy, sober lifestyle. Alex has a Bachelor of Arts degree from San Diego State University and a master's degree in spiritual psychology from the University of Santa Monica. Alex, welcome to the refrain.

SPEAKER_02 1:23

Doug, thank you so much for having me, man. I'm so glad we're finally making this happen. It feels surreal to me. I must say, this is my second podcast this week, which is just to kind of put this in perspective how out of the norm that is. I told my wife, I was like, you know, I have two podcasts this week. And she goes, What? I was like, yeah. She's like, you need to go to Toastmasters tonight. And I literally found a Toastmasters down the street, happened to be one at the La Jolla rec center from 6:30 to 8. And I went and it was great. And I think I'm going to keep going. So hopefully not a whole lot of ands ums and he knows, right?

SPEAKER_01 2:03

That's good. So so I'd like some tips too. And I don't know how we mixed some joke in there about Toastmasters and recovery, but we'll we'll figure that out in post-production.

SPEAKER_02 2:11

I think it's apples and oranges, but you know what? Uh it's funny. There's Toastmasters, then there's a 12-step meeting next door. And I was like, which one do I go to here? So but it was cool. I think I'll keep going and I'll keep you posted. But yeah, thanks so much for having me, Doug. And I really look forward to this discussion.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

And yeah, so we met a long time ago, and uh you were new, not in the industry, but just having opened the grounds. And I'd like to just hear a little bit about uh your story, how you came to that. I think it's important and relevant for uh who you are, and and I think it's also representative of what the state of the art is in recovery transitional programs as well. So I think hearing a little bit about that would be great.

SPEAKER_02 2:51

Sure, yeah, I'm happy to sort of qualify with some background. So, yes, I would say my story as a young adult, adolescent, was definitely unique. I grew up in Santa Barbara, definitely privileged Hollywood background, very loving parents. They had their own curriculum and the stuff they were working through. But I was actually born in LA and then we moved to Santa Barbara during the riots, and it's just kind of their plan to move up there, and that was kind of a good time to go. And so I definitely consider myself from Santa Barbara. But yeah, it was it was definitely I was an only child, and my parents were very active in their careers, and I just from a very young age just really needed to fit in, and I had this yearning to fit in. And I think there was just that that hole, that void that we hear a lot. And I definitely had that. So as I got older, how did that play out for you?

SPEAKER_01 3:47

Can I can I just jump in with a question there? How how did that play out?

SPEAKER_02 3:50

You just give a sense of well, the first time I really remember this, yeah. The you know, just where I was aware of this void, right? And this this this grave separation, I think I became the most aware of this when I was probably in the third or fourth grade, and airwalk shoes were like the thing, right? It was like skate, these were the beginning of skating shoes, and street skateboarding was really taking off. And I just remember thinking like one of my peers came to school and he had the newest, coolest airwalks, and and he got so much prize and praise for having these uh shoes, and there was so much attention that he got. And I just remember thinking, like, man, I need that. I need that from those peers. I'm not okay unless I have that. And I don't know if that was a if you call that insecurity or or whatever it was, but that was sort of the feeling of like, man, I need those airwalks to feel a part of. And it's important that I know that, right? Because I think just in all the interpersonal work I've done over the years, you have to really figure out, okay, where did this start? And what was kind of the root of this? So yeah, so like I said, I mean, my I I grew up in a loving family. They they separated, they divorced, they had their own stuff going on. Um, not a whole lot, no siblings to kind of bounce anything back off of. So it was kind of an interesting, I definitely felt like a sail in the wind, kind of trying to navigate things. And but you know, moving forward, I I then started skateboarding and surfing, and then I I discovered marijuana at age 13, right? And the first time I smoked weed was like a warm hug from God, right? It was it was this feeling of, oh man, I have arrived. And I chased that feeling to the bitter end. It's like, yeah, where have you been? And that very quickly perpetuated a lot of problems. And I went to wilderness treatment for the first time at the age of 14. And I went to Seuss of the Carolinas, which no longer exists. And from there, I went to a therapeutic boarding school and was able to manipulate my parents into pulling me out during the admission process, which I find very skilled to this day. Yeah. As somebody who now works on the other side of the curtain, I just can't believe that all went the way it did. But then I went back to Santa Barbara and immediately was just a truant, not going to class, getting loaded every day. I mean, I just I just burned it to the ground. And then so I went to a program again, a residential treatment center for adolescents.

SPEAKER_01 6:29

I I I gotta stop you. I gotta stop you. I'm curious how you manipulated your way out of going to therapeutic boarding school upon admission. I just general sense of your uh your skill set.

SPEAKER_02 6:40

Sure. Well, when you're an only child and you have uh parents that are in the midst of a separation, a divorce, and you're a black belt at manipulating both sides against the middle, you can be kind of artistic at getting what you want, right? And I think my my mom felt this shame, or she felt that she was gonna lose me and our relationship if I went to this program. How I perceive it is she was gonna lose me if I went into this program. And my dad was just trying to do the right thing and listen to the professionals, right? But she could not be on his side. So it was this like divorce dynamic in the admission office of this program. It's funny, I'll, you know, there's a there's a colleague that is still in the field today, and we work together and we still talk about this experience. And it's amazing because he was there. And he even says this day, I've still never seen anything like that. That was insane. I mean, money on the table, ready to enroll. I'm a perfect fit for this program. And I activate my parents together, and boom, I'm ejected. It's exactly what I wanted. It was like the golden ticket, man.

SPEAKER_01 7:49

We'll get to it later, I'm sure. But I'm guessing that experience of yours impacts how you you navigate your work there at the grounds.

SPEAKER_02 7:57

For sure. I mean, all this takes one to know one. And I definitely bring in a lot of the personal experience. But, you know, so fast forward, I I got what I wanted. I got to go back to Santa Barbara, and so I flamed out of there, and then my parents officially divorced. And so it was this constant thing of who am I living with and where am I spending my time, and then back to programs as an adolescent. So it was this constant back to Santa Barbara, back to a program, back to Santa Barbara. There were no like therapeutic high school schools. I mean, there were therapeutic boarding schools, but there was no like sober high schools back then. There was not the level of resources that is available now, right? And so my parents, through the midst of of their dysfunction, were trying to really navigate what was best for me. And it's so clear now. And so, long story short, I went through these programs and I got into San Diego State. And it wasn't the it wasn't the college I wanted to go to. I actually wanted to go to CU Boulder and I didn't get in. I had terrible grades, I had horrible SAT scores. I wrote this amazing letter about my recovery journey and going through all these programs and things. And San Diego State accepted me. And when I was there at San Diego State, it was just as unorthodox as everything else was. I mean, I'd have dudes with tattoos, sober companions living in the dorms with me. I mean, imagine like six sweetmates at San Diego State, freshmen, and they see this guy with tattoos living with me, trying to keep me sober.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

You had a sober companion when you oh yeah, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:34

And, you know, I'd get 60 days, 90 days sober, and then fall off, and the using the drugs, alcohol, everything sort of started to progress. And then I got two really bad DYs, and I was on academic probation, and I was just really out of my mind. And I was basically manic. And I knew that I was for the first time legitimately hitting bottom myself. Like it was the wheels were coming off the bus and it was no longer working. And that was May 19th, 2008, and I've been able to stay sober ever since, which is not all my doing, right? There's a lot at play here, but it was the smartest decision I ever made in my life, and it probably will continue to be. And I've I've had amazing things happen, but that was the smartest thing. And so I share this because when I got sober and I got my life together, I finally got my undergraduate and I thought, okay, I know programs really well. I know this life experience really well. I want to help guys, I want to do stuff, but I really will, I really want to do something where I feel like I can address areas that I was underserved, right? And, you know, have my own thing, but really sort of address some pieces where I thought kind of fell short through my journey. And, you know, I had I took some some jobs that were very important. And so, you know, at age 25, I I met my now executive director, Canon Christofferson. We were in the La Jolla community. I stayed in San Diego after I graduated. I knew I wanted to have a program here in San Diego. And we started really kicking this thing around. And we were like, hey, what what did we need when we were 19 years old? What what are the things that are so important at that age? And and we both could really relate to each other a lot as far as those those pieces. And what we found was there's great clinical going on, there's great adventure therapy, but this whole concept of real life coaching and launching guys and like having an accountability coach managing everything you're doing, like that was lacking for me, and it was lacking for him. And so that's when we sort of decided to make the real muse and the mission of our program that sort of life coaching model.

SPEAKER_01 11:57

Is that the same as an accountability coach? Uh uh, I wanted to hear more about that.

SPEAKER_02 12:00

Well, yeah, I mean, we just I think you have to have great clinical work and you have to have great adventure, but there has to be a real comprehensive coaching model, in my opinion, right? So that's that's sort of like a nutshell history of where I got to where I'm at today as far as what we created initially and what it's become. But that's that was the mission, that was the muse, the primary driver.

SPEAKER_01 12:22

So now you run the grounds and mayor's house for young men and young women, respectively. Do you want to talk a little bit about the distinctions that you see for young men and young women? Because you've talked a little bit about your experience and what you brought to the ground.

SPEAKER_02 12:34

Yeah, I mean, it's it's been 12, absolutely, Doug. Yeah, it's been 12, almost 13 years, and I've seen a lot change, right? I mean, there's been there's been a lot going on. And you and I have talked about this professionally a lot, and and you and I both see a lot of these shifts. For instance, the first few years, so we had the grounds first, and then we opened Mayor's House, which is named after my mom four years ago. So the grounds was going on a solid seven, eight years prior to us opening the women's program. And those first few years, I could really relate to the core as far as the young adult men's struggles, right? And sort of their behaviors. There was a lot more pushing curfew, raising hell in the community. Where's Derek? He's like 30 minutes past curfew. What's going on? Let's circle the wagons. And it was more sleepless nights and kind of more of that experience. And I can relate to that because that was the kid I was, right? I was pushing boundaries, I was defiant, I was, you know, I was a I was a nice guy and I was friendly, but I was manipulative, man. And I was gonna get my way and do my thing. And I was all about just raising hell. That's what I love to do. And I would do that in a program, outside of a program, it didn't matter, right? So the shift now that we've seen I think post-COVID and just the culmination of all the things, having everything in the palm of your hand, social media, devices, the whole COVID thing, inflation, all the all the stuff, all the different uh factors here. Our job has moved from containing guys and like containing the hell raising, if you will, to extracting them out of isolation and saying, hey, go raise a little bit of hell, right? I mean, not literally, but it's just been this go live some life, right? Let's get you motivated to go experience some things. And so that's that's been like the big shift, and and you and I can really get into the weeds of that, but that's been a big change there. And I know you see that in your career as well, Doug.

SPEAKER_01 14:43

Well, we're seeing it pervasively in the clients that we're seeing in our consulting practice as well as in our mentoring program, these changes. We talk a lot about these shifts on this podcast. We talk about the acting in versus acting out. We talk about growing up too slow instead of growing up too fast. We talk about being risk averse instead of risk taking and on and on. And so we're we're definitely seeing it. How do you see it manifesting differently with young women in Maris House?

SPEAKER_02 15:10

It's a good point. I mean, I would say generally, a lot of my young adult boys at the grounds, depending on what background they come from or you know, what their histories look like, etc., we seem to be treating a lot of similar issues, right? Meaning kind of the failure to thrive model. There were histories of isolation, internet, habitual marijuana use, internet porn gaming, sports betting. We're seeing that kind of pervasively across the board with the guys, right? And so with the women, it's definitely a lot more poly issues there. Girls have a history of disordered eating, sexual activity, self-harm, substance abuse. We're definitely doing more whack-a-mole down there, kind of addressing things. Certain things pop up. And, you know, my program director at the mayor's house, Maxine, she's phenomenal. And she, I can't take credit for this. These are her words. But the boys at the grounds, they need that button-down shirt press, they need to have that resume in hand, they need to look presentable, they need to have that mock interview when they go in for the job. And like they've got a shot, right? The girls at Mayor's House, a lot of them can get a job anywhere on their worst day. So it's not necessarily like a failure to thrive model that needs to be baked into the mayor's house program. Sure, we do have girls that that need that executive functioning coaching, but really it's it's just a dynamic and a variety of issues that we're treating there. And it's got to be top-down with just comprehensive leadership. And my opinion is if you're running a women's program, you got to have solid women running it. That's just my opinion.

SPEAKER_01 16:52

Absolutely. Oh, you talk a lot about this is this is always an important thing. And what one of the things that distinguished you from others out there early on was your emphasis on working and not not emphasizing academics, school, but really the importance of that. And maybe you'd like to speak to that. And I think in a lot of senses, I think work is even more important now than it was 10, 12 years ago when you opened. I think the experience of those first jobs is less and less common. The confidence to go out and do so is harder and harder when one has been isolated for so long and sort of shut up for a couple of years uh during COVID. And that self-confidence to go out and do that, I think is is more lacking pervasively among the younger population. So I think it's it's all the more important here for this population to really get that experience, that that confidence and competence in that domain. So maybe speak to that a bit.

SPEAKER_02 17:47

Absolutely. I mean, you know, kind of going back to when Ken and I were creating this program, we we really took a risk because we were like, okay, well, do we really want to pigeonhole ourselves and just make guys come to the grounds and have them work and like make that be a requirement of the program? And we had a lot of discussions about this back and forth, and we we realized, well, yeah, because if you look at their histories, a lot of them, they were on academic probation, they blew out of conventional university. A lot of the school was sort of utilized as a mortatorium, right? They don't even, a lot of these kids were at college and they don't even know why they were there, right? And and it was a lot of that had to do with some societal pressures or their parents or whatnot. So instead of sort of giving families and and guys this this flexibility to, okay, you can either do school full-time or work or volunteering or a little bit of the of one of each, we just said, look, let's make everybody get a part-time job and we'll do the clinical work and the adventure therapy around that. Because what we determined is when you show up for an employer and say it's the bike rental shop, the surf shop, the coffee shop, juice par retail store, you are all of a sudden doing so much life skills-oriented stuff. You have a schedule, you have a paycheck, you have to show up for coworkers. What do I do with this paycheck? Now I got to set up a credit union. What's a W 2? And you have to stay consistent with it, right? It's not like school where, okay, no, I'm doing good, I'm doing good, and then transcripts come in a few months later and it's like, oh, actually, you failed and you did not do well. As a program, it allows us to really track their progress and see, okay, are they still have the job? Are the paychecks coming in? But long story short, vocation teaches life skills in a way that just volunteering in school can't. And that hasn't changed since inception of what we're doing. So you're exactly right. I think more than ever now, with everything macroly as far as automation and job scarcity and all these kinds of things, even that aside, showing up for a part-time job when you're 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23 is so good for you. And it doesn't define you and it's not forever, but it gives you these building blocks and these builds these small muscles. So when you do go back to college, major university or trade or whatever it is your long-term thing is, you have such a skill set and you have confidence and you have self-esteem.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

I think that's that's the real key there. They're all important, of course, but foundationally to have that experience of those successes and the perseverance and knowing that you can do that can translate into other domains. I think that's that's crucial.

SPEAKER_02 20:50

Exactly, Doug. And we're really educating, I find myself educating parents about that a lot, right? I've talked to parents and they say, Well, Alex, I don't understand. Like I'm I'm trying to give my kids all the opportunity I can possibly get, right? As long as he's doing well at Cornell, I don't understand why he has to work at Starbucks. Help me out here. And I said, Well, how did you get to where you're at in your life, right? I think there's this big disconnect. A lot of our successful families, they had to go through such a level of resilience to get to where they're at. And then they think, okay, well, I need to shield my kid from all that suffrage. And I just want to give them the best opportunities, but they're missing the boat because that resilience piece is what they're really gonna need in order to become successful. And so I always say to some families, I say, look, I'm fine with you saying that now and I'm gonna talk this out. My hope, though, is by the time you finish this program, you're gonna be asking me, Well, how's my son gonna afford that? And that's when we know we're doing our job, right? And we're realistic too. Parents are always gonna be Contributing, our parents of our clients are going to be contributing to their finances, their continued clinical support, tuition if they're going back to school. But if the guys and the girls can start taking over certain things like a cell phone bill, we call it the three F's, food, fund, and free time expenses, gym memberships, things like that, slowly, right? That's the progress that needs to happen. And it's not about working at jobs. It's about what that provides for long-term success.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

And I think that's the that's the part that really gets missed, especially in the in the circles that we often encounter, where, as you said, there's this aspiration for whatever academic or other appearances of success might be out there. And because the young people themselves have those aspirations and and don't feel the ability, that connection to a path to getting there, that's where you get into the effort and screw it and avoidance. And substances are great with relieving some of those negative feelings around that. So this becomes preventative. It's not an inoculation, but it really bolsters the soul. I think it's important to be a contribution and not just sponging off of your parents or society. So I think it, I think it nurtures the soul as well to work.

SPEAKER_02 23:17

Well, and I really try to come from a place of empathy because when I talk to parents, it's understandably so. It's like they have this feeling of terminal uniqueness where it's like, can you believe what I'm going through? It's like, I absolutely do. They feel like they're like a lot of them. Now, there are parents that have gone through a lot of programs and interpersonal therapy and all these things, but a lot of the parents are just they feel like they're the only one going through it, right? And my job is to sort of normalize it and realize that, hey, this is pretty pervasive here. This is happening a lot. And what we're working on and what we're seeing with your son or daughter, and these feelings and emotions that you have through this process, this is all very atypical par for the course for us, right? So just really getting them to you know take a breath and understand. And then it's like, okay, it's time to do some real work. You're gonna put that script down that you've been reading from, and you're gonna pick up a new one. And I'm a firm believer even though we have the young adult in our programs, we're treating the family system 95%. So here we are having this kid, and it's all about him or her, but really it's it's the family. And I would way rather have let's just use a young adult man right now. So I'd rather have a guy who's challenging, defiant, very resistant, just a hard person to be around in my program with parents that are totally on board, versus a kid who comes into my program and is presenting like this rock star, and the parents are completely ambivalent, and they have guilt and shame, and that's and I tell people that and they're like, wow, that's surprising because I thought you're treating the the young adult there. Don't you want to have a lot of willingness and good behaviors? No, it all boils down to what the family is willing to do and not do. Exactly. Yeah, and you and I can relate to that, right? You know, on either side. Personally, improvers all of the above.

SPEAKER_01 25:31

But you know, I think you said it earlier too, is that we also have to maintain a good deal of compassion for what the parents are going through because they're also getting a lot of information out there from all sorts of sources that are confusing and scary, and and the economics of the situation and what insurance will pay for, and what what gets put out there as good treatment really tends to address sort of this the symptoms and let's let's go do this short period of time and get you to not drink for a minute and or whatever it is. And it really misses these foundational components that really help, especially a young adult, develop the the we've said it, but the foundational skills to navigate life successfully. Um you talk about this term, you know, rock bottom, you've talked about your rock bottom, but I also say that you know you you've got to you have to have reached the top of the developmental pyramid to have somewhere to fall back from. And if you've never had the experience of building that self-confidence, that identity, that that sense of um agency in the world, well, you can't just get back to it easily be just because you've your functionality has deteriorated because of your substance abuse. You've got to build from from where you left off developmentally. And for some people, that might have been 13, 14. For some people, it's even if you've started using in your later teens, you still are missing that that development. You're off by a wide margin. And it's just gonna take time and the experience of these small successes in various domains to build up that sense of uh self-confidence and everything I've said out in the community to both. So I think that's a critical piece.

SPEAKER_02 27:04

And I want to circle back to that because there is a difference between the 18 to 24 year olds versus like the 25 to 30 year olds. I want to get back to that, kind of talking to the parents and having the compassion. Sort of what I'm what I mean by compassion is the things that challenge me, right? And I have to surrender my ego and my pride. For example, when I talk to parents and I have to go into a place of compassion when I really would like to just sort of quote reality check them, as we know. Nobody ever wants to hear that, unsolicited advice. The truth is, is I'll get things like, well, we really don't feel that the marijuana was the issue. Our son will admit that the marijuana was not the issue. We just need to do everything we can to get him back into a supportive peer group at school so he can get inspired, and that's gonna fix everything.

SPEAKER_01 27:58

Something external.

SPEAKER_02 27:59

And right. And so for me, I have when I say compassion, I have to go into a place of saying, I hear that, I understand that. Even though I truly feel that like I think the marijuana is probably the biggest elephant in the room, or that that could be any kind of significant drug uh use that's going on, but we're seeing such a prevalence of marijuana-induced psychosis now with guys. Um, and that was so not like the case at all. So it's it's really we've really had to pivot our programming to sure, we get the high energy polyd user, meaning poly, meaning like a variety of different drugs that are being used that has high energy learning disabled, slow processing. I mean, that was that was me, right? And we still get a lot of those guys, but it's it's now we're getting guys that are kind of coming out of that marijuana-do psychosis with a flatter affect. And it's, you know, there's so much more medication management that has to happen in collaboration with the psychiatrist. And that kind of goes back to that's that's the post-COVID, that's one of the big shifts, right? Is that level of acuity is so, so prevalent now.

SPEAKER_01 29:06

We're working on putting together an episode uh specifically on substance-induced psychosis.

SPEAKER_02 29:11

Right, right. Yeah. And so kind of going back to the ages piece, I mean, a lot of people would think, well, if I were to guess, what's easier to work with? Maybe the guy who's 25 to 30 because he's a little bit more emotionally mature and he'll he might have some more willingness. Eh, nope, not at all. It's actually the 18 to 24 year olds are easier because they haven't game the system longer, but they also haven't gamed their parents longer, right? So those behavior patterns with the older guys, the 25 to 30 year olds, the family ameshment has just gone on longer. Those those behavior patterns are more entrenched, and there's just more of that going on versus sort of catching it early with an 18-year-old, for instance. And so, you know, there's more entitlement and just just a lot of different things. Sure, of course, generally the guys that are 25 to 30 aren't like screaming at girls out the window of the van. That's definitely the case, right? Like the 18 or 19-year-olds are. But as far as the emotional maturity, going back to what you're saying, so much of it is arrested, even those guys that are older, right? It's so true. You pick up where you left off. Like when I got sober, it was like, okay, I was 14, 15 again. I have to catch up my emotional maturity, right? Because I was so stunted all these years using. So it's definitely harder to treat the older young adults, I guess, the 25 to 30 year olds, just because they've been through a lot more and the parents have been through more as well.

SPEAKER_01 30:47

It's a different life stage for sure. I can tell you that our population of adults, which is the majority of our consulting clientele at this point, has shifted from a majority being in that 18 to 24 range five years ago. And now our average is probably up into that 25, 26, but getting clients into their 30s and even 40s now more regularly, and then into 50s and 60s at the high end. Those are outliers. But nevertheless, that average age and the and the types of issues they're contending with, it's also a demoralization that that comes as as they're getting older and have tried many things and are further and further from their peers back from high school and college if they went to college. We're actually encountering a number of people that have completed college successfully and you know, maybe had some speed bumps and whatnot, but managed to get through and then sort of right around you know, the COVID stuff, they sort of things stopped in their worlds and they never were able to get back on track. So we're getting a bunch of those too.

SPEAKER_02 31:47

Well, and you guys, I mean, so far as I know, Doug, you guys are offering so much more within the local community now, too. And that gives you that ability and flexibility to work with such a different variety of age ranges and and different family systems and and the whole thing, right? And how long ago did you guys kind of make that change as far as like working more in depth with your community?

SPEAKER_01 32:09

You mean the mentoring program? Uh we started that.

SPEAKER_02 32:12

Yeah, the mentoring program, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:13

10 years ago.

SPEAKER_02 32:14

Is it already 10 years?

SPEAKER_01 32:15

Wow, that's crazy. I was gonna say six, seven years ago, but I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 32:20

Oh, I I just I want to share this, and I don't necessarily know if you remember this, but this was before I opened the grounds and and I was working for another great program doing business development and marketing. And I came to your office and I I met with you for the first time, and I I talked about you know the services and what we do at this program, and you know, it was a good visit and everything, and we stayed in touch. And then I came back and visited you again after I had opened the grounds, and this was like my first year, you know, I was really hustling it, pounding the pavement. And I came in, I sat in your office, and I I told you about what we do, and you looked at me, and it was still this day one of the best compliments I've had in my career. And you said, you know, Alex, it's so good to see you like with so much more of your shit together now, and knowing exactly I can talk to you like a real professional, like a real peer. And I'm butchering it a little bit, but it was just like it was the best thing I could have heard as a young professional trying to get this thing off the ground. It was just like such a win that I needed at the time. So I really feel like that should be stated, and and I'm I'm very grateful for that.

SPEAKER_01 33:33

So oh, we're all grateful to have you in the community of people helping uh young adults, but thanks for sharing that story.

SPEAKER_02 33:39

Yeah. I mean, you know how important it is to like help guys that are coming up, and it's like I'm not a young guy anymore. I'm turning 40 this year. These guys, you know, some some of these dudes that have programs and services. So I kind of took, I remember how good that felt to me at age 25, 26. And so I try to sort of emulate for some of these younger guys coming up, right? And just really saying, hey man, you know what? Like what you're saying is impressive to me. Like that goes such a long way. It goes such a long way.

SPEAKER_01 34:12

You know, I think I think the young people are where the energy is, it's where the innovation is happening, it's where people are taking their own experiences and looking at how the treatment world, treatment industry, mental health, substance related, etc., has been shaping up and sort of coagulating around these just economics-driven models. And there's a lot of energy right now, innovating and taking different approaches and looking at what their personal experiences can bring to the table and professionalizing that with other young people. And that affords the opportunity to have those relationships which are so important in any treatment setting, and engage in the community to have those tethers to something important in the real world, which is lacking more and more, as we all know and talk about all the time. But going forward, it's not gonna get any better unless there are people, programs, innovators taking the lead and figuring out ways to provide that to people on a wider basis. Right.

SPEAKER_02 35:09

I mean, so much of the world we're in now is how are you gonna be relational? How are you gonna build friends? How are you gonna build community? I mean, we are like beyond a precipice of this. I'm a big fan of Scott Galloway, and he talks about this extensively. You know, he's got an amazing podcast, as I'm sure you know, and especially with Mayor's House, I'm learning so much about women and their experience in recovery. And I've learned a ton. What I personally can relate to is obviously as being a man, like the male experience in programs and recovery, right? But really, it's like there's such a significant, you know, we don't have to go deep on this, but this problem isn't going away at all for men, right? I mean, these issues that were treating, it's if anything, it's getting worse. Like the level of complacency, the lack of feeling purpose, the demotivation. I mean, this was just an issue for guys that had like substance abuse and mental health issues. Now it's like it's kind of a pervasive thing. And we've had some parents say to us, hey, you know what? I think every 18-year-old needs this program, whether they have issues or not. And I'm like, that's a great compliment. We'll take it. But I'm curious to see how this is all going to really shake out. And in the meantime, we're just gonna keep just doing what we're doing, staying in our lane, being the muse that we are. And yeah, uh, you know, and that's being said, we have had to make some adjustments and shifts. You know, I brought my clinical programming in in-house this year, and I'm really proud of that. We used to work with third-party therapists, which worked out great for us. But this was time for us to really hire our own clinical team. And it's been it's been a significant shift for the for the better. You know, it's been a lot more comprehensive. And I know you and I have talked about this, Doug, quite a bit, but but yeah, my point is we can make these shifts, but we can always stay true to what we're doing. And it's like navigating the moral compass while also making the necessary shifts and staying in your lane. It's really tough. It's really tough. So, but it's doable. So, Doug, I I I heard this from another great colleague of mine and I I love it. And it's she said to me, you know, if we all just work within the confines of what we do with integrity, we will all be provided. You know, if we all work within the confines of integrity, we'll all be provided for. And I love that because she's right. And with all the different shifts that have happened in the industry over the last you know, decade and a half that I've only been a part of myself, you've seen a lot more than me, I have to remember that a lot, right? And I also allow my amazing people that work within the organization to kind of bring me back to life. Because sometimes I'll want to chase like the new flavor, right? Oh, we got to provide this, we got to offer this, we got to do this, we got to do that. And it's like, no, we don't. We work with failure to thrive young adults, and we help the unhealthy reliance of the family system, and we teach them both how to be independent. That's our news and our mission. We don't have to be all these different things.

SPEAKER_01 38:24

And to bring integrity to that or anything else that we do, I of course, we agree that's that's that's critical. And I think this goes back to the compassion we were both talking about having for the families is that it's harder and harder for them to know whom to trust, who has that integrity in a somewhat corporatized world of treatment. And when a lot of what is happening is that the identification of the problem is being foisted on the child and less recognition of the family system and what's going on. And the families are getting a lot of mixed messages about what to do and whom to trust. And I think that's part of where they're confused and where things can stay chaotic because they hear a lot of people who speak with approximations of integrity out there. But but I think that I this is where I have such compassion for parents and their vulnerability when they're having to tread through something like this with their with their loved one. Me too.

SPEAKER_02 39:23

Me too. And rarely now do we have a parent who reaches out to us where this is their first go-around. And that was so common. I mean, it was so common seven, eight years ago. At least it was half and half. Half the parents, this was their first time going down this road. The other half, they've dealt with it before in some capacity. Nowadays, they've been going through it. They've been going through it.

SPEAKER_01 39:48

Well, you know, that's probably a good place for me to pitch our consulting work because that's that's really what my my primary role has been for 30-something years is helping guide families through exactly that process so we can get to the right factors early and and minimize the chances of having to repeat through that that revolving door of of programs and and really attend to the full range of issues from an outside professional perspective. That's why we like to architect that plan with them. There's my there's my shameless plug for this episode.

SPEAKER_02 40:20

Right. And you know what? People need to hear that. That's just great. I think people need to hear that. Like you and I have worked with a couple families, and and and when they do well with us and they return back to the Bay Area, I'm just thinking of one in particular. How perfect that complimentary, like continued support was, right? Because it just it just fits part there.

SPEAKER_01 40:42

You mean with the mentoring part? That's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_02 40:44

Exactly. Yeah, yeah. For sure. So, you know, it's needed, man. It's needed. And we do need to do stuff more on a community level, even me, even though like most of my families come from out of state and different programs.

SPEAKER_01 40:55

Well, the conversation is happening. You know, you referenced Scott Galloway, and you know, we we listen, we're devotees of uh Jonathan Hayden around here. And there's people who are starting to talk more and more about the pervasive problems of isolation and despair among among young people, and especially now how it's affecting those who are a little bit more at risk and more vulnerable. And I think there's going to be more and more awareness of the importance of getting out, having those physical experiences in the in the real world, getting off the devices and having the community connection. So I'm looking forward to that as we evolve what we have to do in response. It's only out of integrity that we have to respond and adapt differently to what's presenting to us as the care providers.

SPEAKER_02 41:38

Right. It is going to implode on itself in some form. Like we know technology is here to stay, obviously, but it's not this kind of thing where we're just going to throw our hands up and be like, well, this is just the world they're living in now. It's like, no, we're all going to really see sort of the blowback of, and we already are, but I think on like a more global scale, it's like people are going to have to get so serious about curbing their device usage. They're going to have to get so serious about finding time that is not connected to something, and really just being able to feel inspired by whether it's something as simple as just like going for a walk in the park or doing something as radical as like surfing and mountain climbing, things like that. There's going to be a tipping point with this. I know there is. We already have the awareness of how it's so important to unplug and really just utilize tools to curb your own usage of. I look at it every day on my phone. It's like, well, you were on for three hours today, and it's just like, oh, it's just like such a shame. But it's it reminds me of on the pack of cigarettes where it says like this causes cancer, or sometimes they'll leave, they'll have like a horrible sticker there of like a diseased lung. But hey, I'm still gonna light one up after. You know, that's not gonna stop me, right? And that's that's kind of what's going on with that, with the usage of the monitoring on the devices. But I don't know. I it's it's gonna shake out. It's it's not just gonna keep pervasively going in this one direction, my personal opinion.

SPEAKER_01 43:10

So I hope there is some shakeout with it because I I do and I want to say for the record, because I do think we're going towards an AI model, that I do welcome our AI robot overlords when they do come. These podcasts last forever out there, so I want to be clear. But in all seriousness, it's a problem that I think is getting greater recognition. And I and I part of this podcast too is a call to action for people to do something about it, to act out of integrity and out of their passion for working with young people to help them, to assist them. And this is why I love the what you brought to this from when I first met you and what you've continued to do and evolve at the grounds.

SPEAKER_02 43:47

Right. I mean, just think real quick Doug, you and I sent pictures of like, you know, we're both into off roading and overlanding. We're both very passionate about that. And we sent each other pictures of tricked out jeeps and Toyotas and things like that. And and we're We're laughing and it's goofy and it's funny, but really it's like, can you imagine not having that? And so many of our young people just like don't have they're just doom scrolling. And it's just like it's just bringing the inspiration back, right? And getting inspired.

SPEAKER_01 44:14

On that note, Alex Zemeckis. It's been a pleasure having you with us as I knew it would be on the reframe, and uh take care. Doug, this was a blast. Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_00 44:24

Thank you for tuning in to this episode of The Reframe. Follow the show wherever you listen to podcasts so you'll never miss an episode. Please share this episode with your friends, colleagues, innovators in the industry, and anyone you feel would benefit from listening. To learn more about the Bowdoin Group and Bowden Mentoring, and find additional resources, connect with us at www.thebowdengroup.com.